08/03/2014
Should companies implement a "Lean" methodology or a general improvement process with techniques as needed? Steve
Steven Borris Consultant, Productivity Expert - Author of "Total Productive Maintenance" and "Strategic Lean Mapping". Top Contributor
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5 days ago
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Mats Gerschman
Mats
Mats Gerschman
President at Fortus; Increases your Profitability through Operational Excellence and Strategic Alignment
Hi Steven, Your question is great. In today's world it seems like everyone is only speaking about Lean or Six Sigma. That is very limiting. The improvement process in general could include both subjects but there are so many other aspects of improvement processes. What I consider important is to start considering what the company's goals are (and they should come from the strategy). Start the process by breaking down and deploying the goals and lots of productivity improvements can be implemented, including Lean. But Lean doesn't fix it all. Especially as it many times is done by field staff and many times small and good projects are started, but the connection to the overall strategy is not always considered.
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5 days ago
Klara J., Joseph Paris and 1 other like this
Joseph Paris
Joseph
Joseph Paris
Recognized Thought Leader in Operational Excellence, International Entrepreneur, Writer, Speaker, Mentor
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I like to let solution/approach to the problem/opportunity (is there a difference?) "pull" the methodologies and tools necessary to resolve/realize.
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4 days ago
Steven Borris
Steven
Steven Borris
Consultant, Productivity Expert - Author of "Total Productive Maintenance" and "Strategic Lean Mapping".
Top Contributor
Joseph
The problem is what we see: the opportunity is what we tell the company the problem is.
Steve
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4 days ago
Joseph Paris
Joseph
Joseph Paris
Recognized Thought Leader in Operational Excellence, International Entrepreneur, Writer, Speaker, Mentor
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Yes... That is (one of the reasons) why I presented it that way...
... Context and perspective make all of the difference...
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4 days ago
Jamie Weiss
Jamie
Jamie Weiss
Senior Consultant at The Task Group • Boston
Top Contributor
Steve - good question. To me, it comes down to the classic consultant's response: it depends.
If the state of the business is such that performance on the 5 S's is clearly lacking - Six Sigma will help. If there is lots of WIP and excess processing and costs, Lean could work. If you're buried under an avalanche of special cause problems whose cause is unknown, Kepner-Tregoe problem analysis will help chip away at them.
Or maybe it's a question of strategy. I had a client a few years ago where they were all hung-ho on Lean, despite the fact that they really didn't need it. But it had worked for the new COO at his prior posting, so he mindlessly grafted it on. Not that it was going to make things worse, but it did distract from the real issue, which in that case was strategic - holding onto product lines their customers no longer wanted.
So to me it depends on the precise symptoms of the issue.
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4 days ago
Mats Gerschman
Mats
Mats Gerschman
President at Fortus; Increases your Profitability through Operational Excellence and Strategic Alignment
I believe the previous comment is very valid. Some clients have a solution in mind and they do not really want a consultant to guide them, but to get confirmation of their opinion.
So any great stories about how you have convinced clients to be open and listen to advice in a way that doesn't rattle their ego?
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4 days ago
Jehanzeb Navid
Jehanzeb
Jehanzeb Navid
CDIF - MSc IS/IT Management - BSc(Hons) CS
My question, how would you define a general improvement process with techniques?
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4 days ago
Jamie Weiss
Jamie
Jamie Weiss
Senior Consultant at The Task Group • Boston
Top Contributor
Mats - quite true, and a classic case of 'confirmation bias'.
The only way I've managed to get them 'to be open and listen' is to spend the time up front on a 'diagnostic' of some sort, and use the results of that to start the conversation. If you can walk in and see their operation in a different way than they see it, with a cold clear eye and not twenty years of bias as baggage, then that creates an interesting tension for them to resolve.
If the diagnosis is on target, and lets them know how much of a gap there is between where they are and where they could be, and they publicly acknowledge that, then you can start talking about solutions. Before then, I try not to talk about mine, and try not to listen too hard to theirs.
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4 days ago
Jitka W., Mats G. like this
Steven Borris
Steven
Steven Borris
Consultant, Productivity Expert - Author of "Total Productive Maintenance" and "Strategic Lean Mapping".
Top Contributor
Jehanzeb
The definition I had in mind was identifying the problems and fixing them using the best tools - no specific methodology.
Mats
Not so easy to convince a client that has made up their mind...
I once did a process map and the relevant manager ignored me for all the time I was there except when being negative and storming away.
He (and a colleague) even refused to discuss the issues claiming they wanted "to see what my diagnosis would be". My questioning did not go down well. Every now and again they would let something slip but it was not a good situation to be in.
The manager even insisted the map was not the real process despite it being the "as is" process used.
He even refused to accept that the unenforced, undocumented process was not used as hoped and blamed the operator for everything not done.
Steve
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4 days ago
Jamie Weiss
Jamie
Jamie Weiss
Senior Consultant at The Task Group • Boston
Top Contributor
Steve - Sounds like one of my clients!
Let me ask: Why did they invite you in in the first place? Was there a sub-group, usually in the middle, who invited you to come in and convince upper management? (This happens a lot - QA or Ops bring us in because they can't tell management what's wrong themselves without jeopardizing their jobs.
And sometimes, they're just not pickled yet, not ready to see what you see. You may have to throw them back in the barrel until they're ready.
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4 days ago
Steven Borris
Steven
Steven Borris
Consultant, Productivity Expert - Author of "Total Productive Maintenance" and "Strategic Lean Mapping".
Top Contributor
I suspect the top management were suspicious of the performance.
I was even asked, for the first time ever, not to report all of the issues found but to just mention a few key ones.
My problem was I promise confidentiality to the folk I speak to. But I am now going to add a few caveats.
Steve
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4 days ago
Jamie Weiss
Jamie
Jamie Weiss
Senior Consultant at The Task Group • Boston
Top Contributor
Interesting, Steven . . . As to confidentiality, I always promise that and always deliver on that - "I am going to quote everything you say, but not by name, and not if it identifies you in any way" is my standard line.
I had one client years ago who said, "Hey, we can handle the truth - in this culture we all need to know who said what," and convinced me to reveal who had said what. And it was a disaster, turning into finger-pointing and blaming. In the end, they asked, "Why the hell did you share who said what?" "Because you told me to - you insisted on it!"
Never again.
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3 days ago
Steven Borris
Steven
Steven Borris
Consultant, Productivity Expert - Author of "Total Productive Maintenance" and "Strategic Lean Mapping".
Top Contributor
Jamie
That is pretty much my take, too. I have refused more than once to report who said something.
However, in the situation I described I really would not have wanted the person working for me. But the whole situation was not one I would want to repeat.
Steve
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3 days ago
Mats Gerschman
Mats
Mats Gerschman
President at Fortus; Increases your Profitability through Operational Excellence and Strategic Alignment
It is interesting how clients can differ. Most are so thankful for the work you do, and then you have the odd one who wants to micro-manage; is more concerned HOW you proceed than the results, i.e. they want a touchy feely feel good process, but have actually asked for process flows and results, which are not that "touchy-feely" but quite factual and "dry". Where do you draw the line to act as a Consultant and say that this is the process I follow to get results, and not the way you feel would be the best. I.e. when to be humble and when to focus on creating results. Any thoughts?
The reason I ask is again, that if you find that they do not need Lean for example, you try to get them to do the right thing instead and get opposition.
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3 days ago
Jamie Weiss
Jamie
Jamie Weiss
Senior Consultant at The Task Group • Boston
Top Contributor
Too true, Mats.
In my experience, they usually want both - a set of measurable results and a positive human experience. The former are easier to enumerate and discuss, so it's easy to focus on objectives and measures and standards.
Sometimes 'the way you do it' relates to their culture, and if their culture, or that aspect, isn;t something that needs to change for them to succeed, then you mess with it at your peril. If the culture IS the problem, then you have to be very explicit at the start about how you plan to take it on and what tsunamis this might trigger.
I've sometimes been prone to underestimating the relationship aspect of an engagement, to my detriment. Clients may find it hard to enunciate this; at times I have prompted them to talk about 'What's in this for you, personally? What emotional needs should I be sensitive to?" The catch is, by the time you have built enough trust to ask questions like this, you're already in pretty deep.
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3 days ago
Mats Gerschman
Mats
Mats Gerschman
President at Fortus; Increases your Profitability through Operational Excellence and Strategic Alignment
Thanks for sharing your insights, Jamie.
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3 days ago
Mats Gerschman
Mats
Mats Gerschman
President at Fortus; Increases your Profitability through Operational Excellence and Strategic Alignment
Thanks for sharing your insights, Jamie.
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3 days ago
Steven Borris
Steven
Steven Borris
Consultant, Productivity Expert - Author of "Total Productive Maintenance" and "Strategic Lean Mapping".
Top Contributor
Mats
The basic rule of lean - and customer support in general - is to give the customer what they want not what we want to give them.
Steve
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3 days ago
Boovaragan Mohan MBB Lean Six Sigma ITIL V3
Boovaragan
Boovaragan Mohan MBB Lean Six Sigma ITIL V3
Quality Programme Manager at Hewlett-Packard
I strongly advocate on Lean Methodology for process Improvement instead general techniques.Lean is not only talking about elimination of waste.It talks much more bigger.It brings culture,standard way of doing improvement,Engage all in floor ,Giving respect to employees ,Make all empowered ,strong problem solving culture ,looking things differently ,always looking for opportunities etc.Most of us fail to understand the in depth meaning of Lean.If people looking for long term solution and business growth they will go with Lean otherwise vice versa...
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2 days ago
Jehanzeb Navid
Jehanzeb
Jehanzeb Navid
CDIF - MSc IS/IT Management - BSc(Hons) CS
I always believe in getting the right 'tool' for the right 'problem'. If the process is already "waste-free", how would you implement a lean methodology? For any methodology to work, it should have an "environment" present, if it doesn't, no matter what one does, it will not work. Atleast that's my belief.
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2 days ago
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Steven Borris
Steven
Steven Borris
Consultant, Productivity Expert - Author of "Total Productive Maintenance" and "Strategic Lean Mapping".
Top Contributor
Jehanzeb
Interesting points.
I have only ever come across one company that did not use lean that might not have benefitted from it.
I did not see all the functions but assume there must be some areas in need of improvement.
I agree that buy in might be hard but the employees were already working to lean standards, so maybe the benefit would be in improvement as opposed to waste removal.
Steve
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2 days ago
Edward Shelby
Edward
Edward Shelby
Experienced Lean Leader
Give this consideration; take a look at the work/research James Wommack founder of the Lean Institute at Cambridge has offered on a lean initiative.
Lean is actually a philosophy on removing waste so that the process can flow continuously with minimum resistance allowing the people performing the task to work smarter not harder.
Six-sigma is a methodolgy for improving first pass yield in a process mistake proofing the process where the people performing the task own the quality of their work.
So you have an offense and a defense pick them how you want. Now, do the due diligence on how to lead people and you will find the need to understand how to coach the people in the transition game moving from offense to defense. If you can develop this mastery your team and coaches/leaders will have more fun at work than you have enjoyed in years.
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2 days ago
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Mats Gerschman
Mats
Mats Gerschman
President at Fortus; Increases your Profitability through Operational Excellence and Strategic Alignment
Hi Edward, Womack took the TPS system and "westernized" it as you know. And you are right that it is a culture, a way of thinking. Which it is why I am very skeptical of many Lean projects when they are thrown in as a tool and senior management is not really involved. In order to change a culture, top management has to walk the talk and also live it.
Actually before Motorola started their Six Sigma process, TQM had been running 10 years plus and again, it was the culture of Total quality management and always thinking continuous improvement that was so important. The thinking in quality terms is nothing new and Six Sigma takes its concepts from both Juran and Deming. And if you study up on them, you will also notice that Six Sigma and other TQM programs are very progressive and not very defensive at all (if you mean by defensive to protect against errors?). Six Sigma and Lean are today's favorites. Back in the 90's it was Business Process Re-engineering (BPR) and TQM. Not really anything new under the sun.
Anybody with thoughts on what will be the next "BIG TREND"? Innovation? Strategic Alignment?Big data analysis?
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2 days ago
Mats Gerschman
Mats
Mats Gerschman
President at Fortus; Increases your Profitability through Operational Excellence and Strategic Alignment
Steven, could you please clarify what you meant with your previous comment: "The basic rule of lean - and customer support in general - is to give the customer what they want not what we want to give them". Maybe I misunderstand you, but I have never heard anyone define the basic principle of Lean that way. I am also not sure I agree that we always give them what they want, as that might lead to being a "yes" sayer as a consultant and not stand up for integrity and the truth. Ie. to be the person who advises the client what he needs based on the consultant's experience. I realize it causes friction sometimes, but I still want to be known as a consultant who stands up for what I believe in. Did I misunderstand your comment?
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2 days ago
Edward Shelby
Edward
Edward Shelby
Experienced Lean Leader
Hi Mat, great discussion as we peel back the layers of the trends that have evolved in business strategies since the late 60's they each have key elements. I believe we could agree two common elements are people and leadership. I suspect the next big trend coming down the highway of business trends will involve leadership. Organizations are spending large amounts of money in the area of the lean philosophy and the six sigma methodolgy; however the return on investment is questionable largely due to the lack of leadership required to sustain the change.
In the field of business psychology leaders understand they cannot change the culture; however as you say "walk the talk" they can start to coach the behaviors that will sustain the change and this will be the driver that changes the culture.
If you talk to the frontline workers of organizations they will tell you the story of their company hiring the outside consulting firm to come in help implement lean initiatives and six sigma solutions to first pass yeilds and shortly after the outside firm leaves status quo creep (as Wommack warned) takes things back to the way it was and the change agents the company hired are squeezed out by the legacy managers as a threat to their on survival. In the philosophy of lean a basic measuring tool involves the ratio of non-value added workers to value added workers. One process manager with the skills to lead/coach 20 or more value adding workers is seen as a threat to other process managers.
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2 days ago
Steven Borris
Steven
Steven Borris
Consultant, Productivity Expert - Author of "Total Productive Maintenance" and "Strategic Lean Mapping".
Top Contributor
Mats
You are right. I believe it is all about "customer" value.
If I want a blue car and you only want to sell red ones, I need to buy from someone else.
If the customer wants a touchy feeley culture and I want to give them something else, I can explain what I am offering (how and why), but the customer is the one that is buying.
What if the "dry" techniques change the company culture from happy but not as productive as it could be to more productive but less happy, perhaps with dominant KPI's and targets and a "me first" attitude? (This is a fear I have had company owners express more than once.)
Surely we need to adapt our techniques to suit the needs of the client: the first principle of lean: give them what they value not what we want to give them.
By the way, a similar argument would stand for customers who wnat to have a more formal environment and don't like the idea of empowerment without supervision - this exists, too.
If we can't do what they want, surely we need to step aside?
I have only had to do it once. There was no support from anyone in management and no mechanism to put it right.
Steve
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2 days ago
Hans Jernberg
Hans
Hans Jernberg
Maintanance Engineer at Sandvik Materials Technology
Lean principle from Jeffrey Liker.
Nr1. Base the decisions on long-term thinking, even when it is at the expense of short-term financial goals.
Nr 13. Make decisions slowly by consensus. Consider all the options and then perform selected decisions quickly.
I suggest you read them all and use it wisely and more people will stay happy. Use it well and there will be very little for managers to worry about.
I also state that “Operational Excellence, Lean or Six sigma is a deliberate learning process towards a vision or a goal”. That’s my definition and you can feel free to use it and for the sake of arguments, I do not care for any other definition. This is mine and I like it!! ;-D
This definition suggests that an expert cant just TELL others what needs to be done. An expert needs to be a teacher and a coach.
So to answer the starting question.
“Should companies implement a "Lean" methodology or a general improvement process with techniques as needed?”
I’d say a general improvement process from which companies can invent their own way
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1 day ago
Jehanzeb Navid
Jehanzeb
Jehanzeb Navid
CDIF - MSc IS/IT Management - BSc(Hons) CS
A continuous 'waste removal' from a process naturally brings continuous improvement, the question is, what happens when the process reaches it's maturity?
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1 day ago
Edward Shelby
Edward
Edward Shelby
Experienced Lean Leader
Hi Jehanzeb, Not sure of question "what happens when the process reaches its maturity?"
Meaning there is no more waste to remove or maybe the vision is along the lines of product life has the process peaked?
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20 hours ago
Jehanzeb Navid
Jehanzeb
Jehanzeb Navid
CDIF - MSc IS/IT Management - BSc(Hons) CS
Hi Edward, sorry, I meant when there is no waste left within the process
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17 hours ago
Waman Mhadeshwar (Six Sigma Black Belt,Lead Auditor QEHS)
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